Can you speak english in turkey
THEME:Foreign languages in Turkey
Claudia the discussion started on November 5th, 2002 (5:50 pm) with the following post:
Ulrich Agricola replied on 11/06/02 (16:13):
Benjamin replied on 11/6/02 (5:04 pm):
@ Claudia: Thank you for setting up the forum!
Benjamin replied on November 7th, 2002 (11:01 am):
@ Claudia and Urs
killerk ken replied on November 7th, 2002 (11:51 am):
the foreign speaker sa in the turkish tutale schüs
jpm answered on 07.11.02 (12:24):
@ killer chick
Urs answered on 07.11.02 (14:23):
Benjamin answered on 07.11.02 (19:32):
@Urs: I see the same; In any case, there are plenty of opportunities so that each of us can also present our own topic on our hp at the end.
Benjamin replied on November 9th, 2002 (10:03 am):
Urs replied on 11/9/02 (10:44):
Kirsten Ettrich ([email protected]) wrote:
Julia replied on 11/9/02 (3:01 pm):
Benjamin replied on 11/9/02 (3:59 pm):
Claudia replied on November 12th, 2002 (11:05 am):
Benjamin replied on November 12th, 2002 (11:31 am):
Julia replied on 11/12/02 (17:47):
Claudia replied on 11/14/02 (12:41 PM):
Benjamin replied on 11/14/02 (13:10):
Kirsten Ettrich-irtel replied on 11/18/02 (10:30 am):
Julia replied on 11/19/02 (12:51 pm):
Benjamin replied on 11/19/02 (1:31 pm):
Julia replied on 11/20/02 (14:53):
Benjamin replied on 11/25/02 (10:04 am):
Benjamin replied on 11/25/02 (10:04 am):
Julia replied on 11/28/02 (11:34 am):
Hello my dears,
I'm sorry I didn't get in touch, but was back home for the weekend (good excuse, right?).
Although there are not many answers to my request in this forum, I looked at the great homepage of urs and was happy to discover that I was also mentioned as a group member, which of course makes me very happy :-)
do we or you have a plan how it should work?
have you already managed to do some research at university or school?
hope to hear from you guys.
ps: what do you think of exchanging phone numbers by e-mail?
Benjamin replied on 11/29/02 (09:49):
I'll write you a mail now :-)
Benjamin answered on 11/29/02 (10:13 am):
I'll write you a mail now :-)
Claudia replied on 11/29/02 (10:51 am):
Sorry that we're not necessarily very communicative at the moment, but I'm - I don't know about the others - I'm pretty busy at university at the moment (also a good excuse). But to reassure you, you are firmly planned for our project - we can't just let a resource like you go! However, we have not made any further progress in our considerations. At the weekend I'll try to narrow down my topic and definitely define what I want to investigate. Maybe you have a quiet minute and think about what YOU want to do (Benjamin and Urs are also addressed). I hope it works the way I imagine it now (i.e. that in the end I have thought about something and not just everyone else!), So that we can talk again on Monday or Tuesday ?!
Then I wish you a nice WE. Until Monday!
Julia replied on 11/29/02 (3:35 pm):
I am glad that you are not fully up to speed either and that I have not missed that much.
can understand that with the unistress (must give a presentation in 2 weeks).
have a nice weekend too and don't overwork yourselves ;-))
Urs answered on 01.12.02 (12:38):
Do you know what "Tarzanish" is? - It seems to be the most spoken language in Turkish student circles, which is a problem.
Please be sure to read the page behind the link below. I believe it is very important to our project.
jpm replied on December 1st, 2002 (13:05):
jpm answered on 02.12.02 (11:00):
From the article you can see very well that the drive in Turkey to integrate the EU is very strong. I believe it is a mistake if we Europeans fail to recognize that the new media can provide very strong support for integration efforts and that integration processes can be accelerated extremely. We notice this ourselves in the IPK, where a common basis of communication on a relatively abstract (high?) Level could be established in a relatively short time thanks to the Internet. In short: the Internet will drastically accelerate integration processes!
Benjamin replied on December 3rd, 2002 (11:12 am):
At yesterday's event we defined our (initially fixed) research hypotheses (hm, more like: named). contact claudia, because she said she had something on her mind that was similar to your plan
Benjamin replied on December 3rd, 2002 (11:20 am):
Here are a few interesting links that I came across on the net:
"Foreign language teaching in Turkey"
Julia replied on December 3rd, 2002 (4:53 pm):
How are your (our?) Research hypotheses?
If I get it right, these are just our research approaches, right?
I think if mr jpm visited us next Friday, I better look through ...
Benjamin said I should contact you, which I am doing with this.
In general: Is everyone pursuing a hypothesis or is everything researched in the group?
Urs replied on December 4th, 2002 (10:51 am):
Thanx for the links.
The plan is for us to make an overarching hypothesis. Our suggestion would be: "Learning foreign languages in Turkey is first and foremost an expression of an orientation towards the West" (I think we had a slightly different wording, but it was basically the same). Everyone then formulated sub-hypotheses for their own research area (e.g. Turkish foreign language students are essentially oriented. Or foreign languages are not primarily learned in Turkey for the sake of the language itself, but for something else (e.g. to be able to read the literature for another subject) to be able to work internationally later) learned. etc.)
Now you would have to set up such a sub-hypothesis for your subject area.
Claudia answered on 04.12.02 (14:05):
yes, the problem is that I think our two areas of research will be pretty similar. I no longer have your topic in mind, so it would be a good idea if you could give us / me your research hypothesis or the content of your research.
I have now considered that after I have completed my studies I want to take a closer look at a foreign language in Turkey. That is why my thesis is also: Foreign language students are European-oriented. That implies the question
- languages are not also learned that target the
Asian / Eastern world oriented
- the requirements for the students (certificates,
Stays abroad, etc.)
- why this foreign language in particular, i.e. what do you expect
for their profession or they can
introduce / want to work abroad at some point in the future
and to what extent do you like the country / language of the
(With the latter, I'm not yet so sure whether that
not something leads too far)
That has become quite detailed now, but just write me what you think about it and to what extent I get in your way!
lg from Eichstätt,
Benjamin replied on December 4th, 2002 (5:06 pm):
@ everybody out there
my research hypothesis (current version)
"Turkish young people are more motivated in learning foreign languages and see more meaning in it than Germans."
Julia answered on 05.12.02 (12:48):
@ Claudia and also Urs & Benny
Your research area is more related to the WHY, i.e. why do the students learn this particular language, what do they intend with it or what goals do they pursue.
Your last point (to what extent do they like the country they belong to) is a very interesting one, since language and culture are inseparable.
A Turk who grew up in Germany claimed in a seminar that Turks are most homesick and that being Turkish is in his blood. I found this statement very interesting because, as far as I know, he never stayed in Turkey any longer and grew up with the German language.
My point is:
Do all Turks have such a strong sense of home?
Would the consequence be that they are therefore not very interested in foreign cultures and accordingly only learn foreign languages for professional reasons?
-> "I'm not sure if this leads too far" - do you mean whether it leads too far for your topic or whether it is generally difficult to research?
otherwise I would be interested in it :-)))
Anyway, I'd like to explore the HOW
à la "German and Turkish are completely different languages in terms of the language structure. Do Turks find it difficult to learn / understand German?"
(just as Chinese is difficult for us)
This of course also includes your motivation (do you like to do it / voluntarily and if why (-> overlaps with yours.)
Um, first of all say what you think of it, does it fit into the topic or do you find these aspects unimportant etc.
I'm looking forward to your comments and criticism, Julia
Claudia replied on December 5th, 2002 (7:40 pm):
have you read Benni's research hypothesis? I believe that you two now overlap (see motivation)!
Urs replied on December 6th, 2002 (10:42 pm):
Current version of my hypothesis:
"Foreign languages are not learned in Turkey for the sake of the language itself, but for other purposes (reading the foreign-language specialist literature of another subject, language is required in a desired profession). Language for the sake of language means here that no explicit one A profession is sought in which language is the 'tool of the trade' (such as language teacher, translator, etc.) "
Benjamin answered on 07.12.02 (09:55):
@urs would you as a group speaker send the hypotheses to jpm?
Julia answered on 07.12.02 (14:11):
it looks like our hypotheses partially overlap - especially when it comes to motivation.
but do you think that's so bad?
namely not because we
a) are a group anyway and should work together as a group
b) group work is much more fun, especially in istanbul itself (don't want to wander around alone !!!)
c) I actually understood it to mean that we all "research" something together and then only the homepages are designed to be more specialized
Have I misunderstood that or does it work that way anyway, despite our own theses ????
please clarify + send statements about my shaky thesis, thank you julia
Urs answered on 09.12.02 (20:19):
The texts (Benny's and my pages from the vastness of the worldwide network) I have linked again clearly on my home page.
Claudia replied on 12/10/02 (11:28 am):
Yes, you are actually absolutely right. It is probably unavoidable that we partially overlap. But the key point is different for everyone. Then it fits.
Besides, as you said, we are after all a group and we have the same topic.
About Istanbul: Haven't you noticed that the date has changed? There are now two different dates to choose from, which are still hotly debated at the moment. You can find the specially set up forum at www.ldl.de, Discussion Forum, Istanbul Travel. However, the discussion only continues until 8 p.m. tonight, M. Martin wants to book tomorrow!
As it looks, however, Benjamin and I cannot ride (we have a Spanish intensive course at the same time) and Urs has no time either!
Well, the best thing is to take a look at the forum yourself!
Julia replied on 12/11/02 (16:56):
Is it correct that a suitable date has not yet been found for everyone?
In general, I have not yet planned a fixed period for my vacation, so I am relatively flexible.
Do you generally not want to drive or is it just because of the unfavorable date?
Benjamin replied on 12.12.02 (09:27):
you should have received the email from JPM by now. Personally, none of the dates mentioned worked for me (because of the Spanish course etc) but I definitely didn't want the trip to be postponed because of me, as I don't necessarily have to go to Istanbul. I don't yet know what Claudia and Urs are doing now. If I see it correctly, Urs wants to organize a trip himself now.
Claudia replied on 12/12/02 (10:27):
Here is an interesting link. Be sure to have a look!
Claudia replied on 12.12.02 (10:57):
And a few more. They relate directly to your studies with some very interesting tables.
Benjamin replied on 12/16/02 (11:14 am):
Today at the ipk we will start to work out a presentation in which we will present the knowledge we have acquired so far (from internet research etc ...). the presentation itself will not take place until after christmas. greetings Benjamin
Urs replied on December 16, 2002 (1:44 pm):
It would be great if you could also read the mentioned pages so that we have about the same level of knowledge.
Merry Christmas already
Julia replied on 12/16/02 (5:20 pm):
It goes without saying that I read the specified pages :-)
Mr. Martin has now set the registration deadline for his trip to Istanbul.
How about our group? Do you want to drive + money? Can we find an appointment together? He had told us that you, Urs, were trying to plan a cheap trip for everyone - is that correct?
Have a nice Christmas to you too, Julia
Claudia replied on 12/18/02 (13:56):
how does it work with your homepage? Have you already put something online? During our project day you were already busy creating (it was you who gave us the idea with the flags!)
If so, please let us know here. Or have you already made a firm decision to work with the Augsburgers? Anyway, we definitely have nothing against support from Augsburg (just that you know that).
lg from Eichstätt
Julia M replied on 12/18/02 (3:58 pm):
Here is my address:
Unfortunately not everything works the way I want it to, but soon ... (already got advice in the web design forum).
Christmas greetings, Julia
Benjamin replied on 12/26/02 (8:38 pm):
@ C, J, U
I have now collected a few links and will look through the pages I found to see if they are useful. then I will send you the useful links.
G kce replied on 12/29/02 (18:07):
Hello everyone !
I am Turkish myself and have only been living here in Germany for 8 years. I come from Übach Palenberg and am in 12th grade at the Übach Palenberg high school.
My name is Gökce Baykut, I am 18 years old and can speak 6 languages: Turkish, German, English, French, Latin and Spanish.
Actually, I was looking for a couple of websites about French grammar, but somehow this suited me and I wanted to answer a couple of questions you might have.
If you have any further questions, feel free to write to my email address: [email protected]
So, in Turkey there is actually a lot of emphasis on learning foreign languages, but actually only a few do it.
To do this, one should better familiarize oneself with the school system in Turkey and the social circumstances in Turkey.
In Turkey, since a reform (I'm not sure, I think) 5 years ago, elementary school has now lasted 8 years. At the end of these 8 years, students take national knowledge tests and only those who can get high qualifications come in so-called Anatolian Lysees .. that is, high schools that offer better education than the others ..
So the pressure on the students is very high .. After all, their whole future depends on it .. The same applies to the universities .. The same procedure ..
There are certainly private schools, but not many can afford them.
While in a private school pupils begin to learn the first foreign language in the first or second grade, in normal schools, there are sometimes even no teachers for some subject at all.
Or to be completely honest, the teachers themselves are not well trained and pass their time ..
Basically, however, the fifth grade starts with the first foreign language.
The most widely learned foreign language in Turkey is English, followed by German, French and Russian.
So the foreign language orientation is directed to the west, unlike what one would have imagined ..
Arabic or other Eastern languages are only learned by those who might later study theology or those who later have something to do with religion in their job. Since our religion is Islam and the Koran is written in Arabic, one has to be a theologian speak Arabic well ..
In Turkey, however, tourism plays a very important role, so more and more people are learning English, German or French.
It also depends on the place where you live. If you live on the border with Greece, Greek may also be taught at those schools .. Well, Modern Greek ..
Very few people know ancient Greek or Latin, and they are professors or archeologists ..
In short ; as an average student, those who can speak some English are lucky enough to be lucky.
It's a topic of location factors: near tourist centers, American Air Force bases, soccer clubs and other international places, you always meet people who can at least speak English.
Where else do you learn foreign languages?
As I said, I'm from Turkey .. and I've only been living here for 8 years.
My father works at the Nato Air Force Base in Geilenkirchen, that's why we've been here for 8 years.
When it was decided that we were going to move to Germany, I couldn't speak a word of German. I had just finished elementary school (5th grade) and I couldn't speak English either because it didn't start until the 6th grade.
In Konya, the city from which I come to Germany, there was a foreign language learning school.
Her name was TÖMER. And that's where I learned German for the first time. Tömer is a private school and I remember that it had already cost a lot back then. Not everyone in the Turkish economic situation can afford it.
The teachers are mostly people who have lived abroad and now they teach ..
There is so much more to write about but I can't think of anything more.
You can actually put the key point like this: if all students in Turkey had the same educational opportunities as the European students, many more people in Turkey would be able to speak more foreign languages today. But the economy is pretty bad and only those who have money can provide their children with a safer, better future ..
If you have more questions, write to me.
Benjamin replied on 12/29/02 (21:37):
Thank you for your very interesting and useful forum post !!!!
I am very impressed with your foreign language skills. I am currently in England and unfortunately I do not have much time here to write to you in more detail, but I will make up for that as soon as possible, because I have a few questions that you can help me with.
Best regards, Benjamin
jean-pol martin replied on 12/30/02 (07:59):
Hello! (I'm just stopping by quickly). I also found the post very interesting and I am pleased that you (Benjamin) responded so promptly. Greetings from Brittany to England!
Claudia replied on 12/30/02 (12:14 pm):
Thank you for promptly participating in our forum. You helped us a lot - and impressed me very much with your foreign language skills. But I still have a few questions for you: How long did you attend private school and have you already learned all the languages that you now speak there?
How do you like it in Germany? Do you still go to school here, what future plans do you have and will you stay in Germany even if your father is transferred back to Turkey?
Question upon question, and these are just the ones that came to mind while reading through your post. I hope you will stop by again and get in touch.
I look forward to your answers
G kce Baykut replied on 12/30/02 (18:01):
I didn't think I could be of great help to you. I am happy if I can contribute something. I am also interested in the topic and I would like to have an impression of how the Germans imagine the Turks.
I will first answer your questions; later I will also have a suggestion for you:
I attended private language school about 2 months before I came here. Its name is Tömer and it is in the center of Konya, one of the larger cities in Turkey.
Back then, in 1995, I was only 11 years old and all the other students who took the language course were much older than me. Most of them were students or businessmen.
Since I hadn't taken learning the language too seriously at the time, I even stayed in the class once. After all, everyone else was much smarter than an eleven-year-old.
When we came to Germany, I couldn't speak much German. All I could do was use simple conversational phrases like:
Hello, how are you? I am well. And you? Nice weather today. My name is Gokce. What's your name ? and so on ..
Here in Geilenkirchen and the surrounding area, officers are stationed every third year, so they come here to live with their families for three years.
If they have school-age children, these children must first have a little command of the German language.
That was one of the reasons why I started taking private German lessons from Anneli Haarling immediately a week after we arrived here in Germany.
She is around 50 years old, studied pedagogy (I think in Aachen) and has been giving German tutoring for children at least since I've known her.
I learned to understand, write, read and speak in German in exactly 8 months.
In my opinion you can only speak a language if you can understand, read, speak and write it .. Otherwise not.
I have to say that I just have a talent for languages. Numbers and science just don't suit me .. I like learning vocabulary and being communicative ..
I learned the other languages that I can speak here in Germany.
I feel really happy that I can go to school abroad, here in Germany.
Because in Turkey, even in the best private school, I couldn't speak all these foreign languages that I know now.
In 5th grade I chose English as my first foreign language. French followed in the 7th grade and Latin was added in the 9th grade. Besides, Turkish is my mother tongue. In 11th grade I chose Spanish.
In the 11th year of school I did an exchange in the USA. One year in the state of Ohio, in Xenia ..
There people are very fond of languages; at least in most high schools..When I went there and said I could speak 6 languages, they all looked at me like god.
There I had the highest level in all languages.
French 4, Latin 4 for example ..
And in 11 as I said, I had Spanish for the first time. I had never had Spanish before, but there I was transferred from Spanish 1 to Spanish 3 class in 3 weeks.
In the 3 weeks I taught myself Spanish up to the Spanish 3 level and after a test, they transferred me to the Spanish 3 class, where I only got A s, i.e. the best grade.
If you know one Romance language, it is very, very easy to learn another. Latin, French and Spanish are just so similar ..
Turkish is a little more complicated of course. But we have a lot of foreign words from English, French, Spanish and Arabic ..
I find English to be the easiest language to learn.
But German was also very easy to learn.
The most important thing besides private lessons is of course that you speak and hear a lot of German in your free time.
At the beginning there is still hesitation, but later the individual words are followed by several sentences.
It's like a baby in language development .. First the one-word stage, then the two-word stage, and finally the multi-word stage.
You have to give a lot of yourself. The Germans, for the most part, of course, not all, don't like the Turks. Maybe it's because there are too many of us, or because Turkish is spoken and kebab is eaten in every corner ...
I don't know why it is, but it is so. I often notice that myself.
For example, when I am chatting and tell the unknown person my name (Gökce), he of course notices that it does not sound German and asks me about my origin .. I say that I am a Turkish woman and the person listens to chat...
Of course there are also Turks who get involved in many fights and criminal acts, but one cannot assume that all Turks are like that ..
One must not generalize the whole situation using a negative example and develop prejudices from it.
A lot of people also ask me whether my mother wears a headscarf, whether I can wear a miniskirt or whether I have already been promised ...
Of course they are curious and want to know .. I think it's great that people ask when they don't know something ..
So, I tell you ...
But not all Turks wear a headscarf .. Have a look at the gossip press on the Turkish websites, then you will see the skimpy clothes or other "items of clothing" that you have not even seen at Pamela Anderson's ..
Modern Turkey is completely different. Especially in the areas where tourism is practiced, people look very European in terms of clothing.
You can wear what you want ..
Only the more you go to the east, the more the looks get slanted.
And women all alone have the choice of the husband .. Unfortunately, it is also true that one or the other time girls are promised at a very early age .. But it is very, very rare.
Turkey today is very modern in all respects.
I like Germany very much. First, school education, environmental cleanliness, fashion, leisure activities and so on.
The only thing I don't like is the weather. It's really boring that it rains every day and the sky is covered with gray clouds.
I also cannot understand that Turks are not liked.
An example from my everyday life:
Here in Übach Palenberg, where I live, a lot of Americans and Canadians also live on my street.
A few months ago the American family moved into the house on the corner .. The girl's name is Maryssa and is 18 years old .. She is a pretty girl but her clothes are just shabby .. I think Germans pay a lot of attention to clothes and only then when the Klammotes are ok, they get in touch ..
But they only contact her because she is American.
You can always see that clearly .. When we talk about America, they like to listen .. But if I were to talk about Turkey, hardly anyone listens anymore ..
I think that's a shame ..
Most Turks also often refer to the Germans as fools. Perhaps it is because most of them, with integration problems, are just getting their secondary school diploma and the Turks mostly work in areas where no one else wants to work: like in the garbage disposal as factory workers or in the mines ..
Yes, well .. My condition is much different than the average Turk .. First of all, we are not guest workers. My father works here for NATO and, by the way, he came here for an unlimited period of time, that is, until he is retired, we will live in Germany .. So, my father will not be relocated ..
We live in a beautiful area, different from the Turkish "slums (the skyscrapers)". I have a completely different circle of friends than a normal Turkish woman .. I don't know any Turks at all .. And I also have a completely different view of Germany and the rest of the world .. My family is not religious either ..
I am currently in the 12th grade of the Übach Palenberg high school .. After high school I want to study .. I currently have 3 ideas about what I want to do .. I have to make up my mind next year.
A third wish would be a teaching position at grammar schools, i.e. to become an English and Latin teacher .. Second wish: study medicine (dentistry or gynecology) .. And my greatest wish is to be a civil servant in the foreign service .. So ambassador of Germany in any country .. For the second and third wish I would study in Aachen and for my goal in Bonn ..
But if I want to achieve my goal, then I also have to take on the German citizenship ... But I would do it smoothly .. After all, I grew up here and this is where I become someone, and I love Germany .. So why not ??
I cannot imagine living in Turkey later. Women with a good career are not tolerated there. So in the future I will stay somewhere in Europe or in North America ...
The most important thing is, regardless of what I do later professionally, I want to be able to use all the languages I can and be in contact with a lot of people from all over the world. So I imagine something as an ambassador for Germany or in the United Nations ..
I hope I was able to answer the questions asked thoroughly ... If you want to know more, then you can just write.
I can also be reached as gbaykut in Yahoo Messenger or as Msgokster in AOL instant messenger.
Now my suggestion to you:
Where are you all from? I assume you live here in Germany: or somewhere in Europe where it is teeming with Turks ..
Do a couple of surveys with the Turks. For example, ask 100 people the same questions and compile statistics.
You must have Turks in your area or a kebab shop, right?
Turks are nice people and they would like to answer the questions if they understand German of course.
I looked at your questions in the forum .. It sounds like you are talking about a people that hardly exists .. Turks are everywhere, ask them ... And then maybe you have other opinions too, what i mean ... i bet ..
But as I said, if you have more questions, feel free to ask me ..
I wish you all a happy new year 2003 too !!
P.s: yes, my family also celebrates New Year's Eve .. We also celebrate Christmas, although we are Muslims .. But that's just my family .. not all Turks do that.
Do it well.!
G kce Baykut replied on 12/30/02 (6:05 pm):
Hello again !
It just occurred to me that you can also ask the many Turks via chat on the Internet ..
After all, many Turks like to chat in internet cafes because of high unemployment rates ...
Most of them also speak English.
Most Turks can be found in Yahoo Chat Rooms, Regional Chat, Asia or in the private user rooms.
jean-pol martin replied on 12/31/02 (9:20 am):
"I looked at your questions in the forum .. It sounds like you are talking about a people that hardly exists .. Turks are everywhere, ask them ..."
- Your sentence is really funny because it's kind of true. On the other hand, communication on this forum works very well thanks to your contributions, right? If you want to know who is asking these questions: they are students from a course at the University of Eichstätt. I myself am the professor who leads this course. We are very interested in Turkey and will soon be flying to Istanbul to conduct interviews there. An important aspect of our project is that we are looking for a permanent exchange of ideas with Turks, whether in Istanbul or in Germany. We are looking for partners to improve the relationships between people from different cultures through the concrete exchange of information and encounters! Maybe we will organize a meeting sometime in the summer and maybe you can come to that meeting too!
In any case: please do not be confused by my brief visit to this forum. I withdraw again and let the students continue to speak / write ...
Julia replied on 01/01/03 (10:32 p.m.):
Wish you all a happy new year.
On which we can set up a great project ...
I also thank you for your openness and suggestions!
G kce Baykut answered on 01/02/03 (11:35):
Thank you for your wishes for the new year .. Likewise!
The long mail from December 30th. may sound aggressive to you ... but of course I didn't mean it that way.
My suggestions were in a friendly manner .. Sorry if it didn't come across as such ..
yes, I think the communication on this forum works really well.
Which subject is it that deals with this topic?
Are you planning the round trip to Istanbul yourself or are you wondering which places to visit in Istanbul?
Will you do more university visits or visit the city yourself ...
If you need any tips about what you absolutely have to see in Istanbul, you can also talk to me about it.
Happy New Year again to you guys!
argue answered on 01/02/03 (14:59):
First of all a happy new year! I'm just a bit on the line and am amazed that I am being addressed here, even though I have not posted anything. What does your contribution to me and the question about a subject relate to?
G kce Baykut replied on 01/02/03 (21:11):
Oops, sorry..that was my mistake..I meant the mail from Jean Paul Martin dated December 31, 2002.
the Gokster (my nickname from the USA)
jean-pol martin answered on January 3rd, 2003 (10:23 am):
Don't apologize at all !!! Thank you for your contributions!
"The long e-mail from December 30th may sound aggressive to you. Of course, it wasn't meant that way."
- That’s very clear! If you didn't want to participate constructively, you wouldn't be writing so long and informative articles! In addition, the relationship between Germans and Turks is not without problems. If we want to improve this, we have to address the issues! You are not aggressive at all, dear Gökce!
"@Streiti: yes, I find the communication ..."
- Mr. Streitenberger is the administrator of this forum, i.e. he can e.g. delete the posts if they are "immoral"! That is why there is "Streiti" in front of the post in the forum and therefore the small misunderstanding.
"What subject is it that deals with this topic?"
- This is not a real subject, but a new, innovative module called "Internet and Project Competence". This is my "invention", if I may put it that way ...
"Are you planning the round trip to Istanbul yourself or are you wondering which places to visit in Istanbul?"
- The students should organize everything themselves (even the flight and the stay). In the "Free Topics" area there are more forums about our project, moderated by other groups ...
"If you need any tips about what you absolutely have to see in Istanbul, you can also talk to me about it."
- Thank you very much: my students will certainly take up your offer!
Claudia answered on January 3rd, 2003 (16:50):
after I wrote you a long article yesterday, but my computer went on strike due to a power failure, I'll just try again today - and first of all I would like to introduce ourselves.
We are students from Eichstätt and are currently taking part in the course `` Internet and project competence, which was led and launched by Jean-Pol Martin '' as he has already told you. In this course the students learn to create a homepage and to carry out a project at the same time. To do this, we join together in smaller groups and choose a project topic from the major overarching topic Culture comparison with the western Islamic world. Benni, Urs, Julia and I, for example, form a group and we have chosen the foreign languages, ie we now want to investigate which foreign languages are learned in Turkey or in Germany, how the school system or the university system is structured, how big it is Turkey's motivation is to learn foreign languages, whether there are stays abroad, like you have already done, or what the attitude of the young Turks is towards the country whose foreign language they are learning, i.e. whether they could imagine, for example, there to work later. In order to now exchange ideas and / or to involve others in our discussion, we have founded this forum. In addition, a 3-day stay in Istanbul is planned, during which we can distribute questionnaires on site and conduct interviews with schoolchildren and students. The results are then evaluated in the summer semester and published on your own website.
So much for the course. As I said, we are a group of four - one of them, namely Julia, from Augsburg - and we are all studying to be a grammar school teacher in the third semester and Julia is studying German as a foreign language (DaF). Our homepages are already on the net, some with pictures, so if you want to get a closer impression of us, just click on it ...
Even if you still don't want to believe it, I can only tell you again that you are a great help to us, because we only have a superficial impression of the Turkish school or university system and of life in general from reports in newspapers and Internet - and we are unlucky not to be able to speak Turkish. However, you know your way around and can also tell us in German (!!). Simply great.
And since you offered it to us so nicely, I have a few questions for you again. What about your family, have they settled in well in Germany or do you not encounter waves of foreigner hatred from time to time? And how did your relatives or acquaintances and your friends react to the fact that you moved to Germany? Or what I'm actually getting at is how do Turks in Turkey think of Germany and the Germans?
I'm looking forward to your answer again,
Here are the links to the homepages
Urs replied on January 3rd, 2003 (10:52 pm):
Thank you very much for your information! I only got around to reading in the forum today, but you also helped me with my question.
@Julia, Claudia, Benny, Martin and Co
Thank you for taking care of the forum. (I've been bothered with travel organizing and housework for the past few days.)
Greetings to all
G kce Baykut answered on 01/05/03 (14:41):
Hello everyone! <> @ Claudia: First of all, thank you for the detailed explanation of the intentions of your project .. In the 5th grade I saw in a very short time that the Germans attach great importance to clothes .. The more (back then it was HOmeboy), Esprit, Gap or Misssixty you wear, the more you are respected, so to speak ..
I can afford it, but there are so many other Turkish families, especially guest worker families, who cannot afford it. And most Turks are sometimes hated because they look turquoise or wear unfashionable clothes ..
When I look Turkish, I mean: black hair, and black eyes and darker skin color.
Stop Mediterranean! Like Italians, Spaniards or Greeks.
Since I don't necessarily look very typical Turkish and don't have an accent in German, many who see and hear me for the first time think that I am and am German, I don't know why, but very positively surprised when I tell them that i'm a turkish girl
So, for me it was somehow no problem settling in. My family and I are very open people and we like the traditions of the Germans (Christians). But there are also things that we would never take on because of our culture.
Like drinking and sex before marriage ..
That doesn't mean that we don't drink at all, but we drink at all, until we vomit, I think that's stupid anyway.
Same with sex before marriage ..Incidentally, this is also the case in many Christian countries .. In the USA, where I spent a year, I also saw it ..
People there are also very conservative and even have mass movements like True Love Waits ... And there are even anti-sex ads on the radio before marriage.
So the Turks are not the only ones ... I also don't think that this is something religious .. but simply something moral ..
However, that doesn't mean that I don't have any male friends. On the contrary, I'm someone who gets along better with boys than with girls anyway. So I have a lot of friends (boys), but not a boyfriend ..
My family is very modern .. My mother and father both look and think very European .. except for the two points mentioned above, of course.
Since my father works at the NATO Air Force base, and the official working language there is English, he can only speak English and does not actually need to learn German. He can only speak English and Turkish .. just like my mother ..
Of course you can also use a few German useful sentences, such as "Gökce is not at home, call later, or Gökce is not here at the moment, or how much does it cost? Etc. They also understand most of the German language, but they do speak Not.
I speak German all the time at school and when I'm with friends. Otherwise, Turkish is always spoken at home. English at the base. We are, so to speak, trilingual.
My little sister, Tugce, however, is very different. She came here when she was 1.5 years old. She is now 8 years old and can express herself better in German than in Turkish. She can also understand and speak Turkish, but not quite write.
Since there are also many Turkish, American and Canadian families from base here in our area, my parents don't necessarily need to learn German, they get by with their English skills.
But of course that's not an excuse .. You should do it like me .. Because if you live or live in a country for a longer period of time. If you want to live and work, you also have to be able to speak the language.
I'm always the one who always has to translate the bank and invoice papers that are written in standard German and are not necessarily easy to translate .. I hate that .. :) The operating instructions are also difficult to translate, especially when it comes to Technick works .. Since I also belong to the "Women and Technick!" case and don't even know very much what the words actually mean ...
We encounter xenophobia less .. We live in a multicultural area .. People are used to dealing with foreigners.
Also only 3 minutes away from the Netherlands .. We also have a lot of Dutch people here.
But the general attitude towards the Turks bothers me.
Although, for example, the Turks took 3rd place in the World Cup last year, hardly any boys in our school would agree to buy a Turkish football shirt instead of an English, Italian or French ...
Or even if people are "frightened" by the typical Turkish appearance, we actually have a lot of pretty girls or good-looking boys .. Miss World 2002 is also a Turkish woman, Azra Akin.
Well, something is wrong!
The Turks are not that bad after all .. But we are not given a chance, we are always only massacred .. somehow ...
I don't remember how my friends reacted to us moving to Germany ..
But it is really different to come here, different from a guest worker, namely for NATO.
The people in general see Germany or Europe as a way out ... Almost everyone who is interviewed in Turkey says they would rather live abroad. That has to do with Turkey's economic problems. Unfortunately, everyone just wants to away .. Preferably to Germany, since almost everyone in Turkey has relatives in Germany ..
So to make it here in Germany, to have a good job here and to earn a lot of money, is very respected by the people in Turkey and arouses interest in emigrating ..
What do the Turks in Turkey think of Germans and Germany? ::
The Turks in Turkey admire Germany's economy and are fascinated by the unemployment benefit .. :))
That's why they all want to come here.
But on the other hand, (it's not my opinion, but it's just true, sorry, please), many Turks refer to the Germans as "pigs". Firstly because they eat pork and hire the Turks for heavy or dirty jobs.
(By the way: I also eat pork .. I think it tastes good too .. but we don't buy it .. only if we are invited somewhere, then we also eat.)
So the relationship is strange .. By the way, that's what many Turks think, but not all of them ..
Many, however, like the Germans not only but only the economic advantages that they have to offer ..
Many who live here in Germany would move back to Turkey immediately as soon as they had all the money they wanted.
But I think that is also related to the fact that they have integration problems and encounter hatred of foreigners and do not want to understand that they sometimes have to adapt a little to the country in which they live ...
I hope, Claudia, to have answered your questions in the best possible way.
@ all: best regards ...
Urs answered on 01/05/03 (21:19):
Thank you for your posting. I would also like to ask you something:
You indicated above that foreign languages actually play a major role in Turkish schools. At the same time you mean (that's a bit unclear to me) "only a few do it really well". Do you mean that only a few students can speak the foreign languages really well in the end, or do you mean the communication is not that great?
Perhaps you can also say a little something about how foreign languages are taught in Turkey. Is it like our English lessons, where a lot is spoken, or is it more geared towards translating (like Latin)? What kind of people are they teaching foreign languages anyway? You said you feel like the teachers are really good at the languages. What do you think is the reason? You also indicated that whether or not you have the chance to go to a good school depends to a large extent on what social class you come from. That actually means that only people who come from a higher social milieu can intelligently speak foreign languages properly and get more qualified jobs again, right?
You also mentioned that at the beginning you learned German in a private school together with managers, students and so on and weren't so motivated (maybe it wasn't the right thing for you as an 11 year old)? If you knew then that you would move to Germany, why was it not so important to you to learn the language as quickly as possible? What were the motivations of the other course participants back then (as far as you can remember)? Was it people who used German for their job, or did the students study German?
So I think that was a whole lot of questions. I am very curious what you will answer, am looking forward to it and would like to thank you in advance.
Claudia replied on 01/10/03 (8:51 am):
I hope I haven't chased you out of the forum with my constant questions :-))
Urs replied on 01/15/03 (3:06 pm):
I found an interesting source for educational data in Germany.
Benjamin answered on 01/20/03 (10:59):
@Urs: I think the FB so far is very good. A few of the questions correspond to my ideas for my FB :)
Catherine answered on 01/24/03 (12:59):
Hello! I am also a student on the project. We have different topics that we are investigating and that of my group is the situation of foreigners in Turkey and Germany.
What you said is really very interesting and has really "tied" me to the computer!
If you feel like it, it would be really great if you could tell something about your experiences in our forum.
So far we have mostly dealt with the foreigners who come to Turkey. You say that many Turks dream of a life in Western Europe or simply abroad. Can you imagine why other people move to Turkey? And what do you think, what advantages Turkey could have for a Western European? Probably assuming you have enough money ..
I'm looking forward to your answer!
Oh yes, you can find our forum under the free topics under the point: Being a stranger
Have a nice day everyone!
Michael answered on 02/09/03 (15:22):
Here again the evaluation sheet for the group-internal evaluation. Please check your mailbox, there you will find details about the evaluation.
How much does the respective group member get involved and can others
motivate? That means what about:
- commitment (diligence)
- (Own) initiative
- (self-) motivation)
Please give each of these three points a grade from 1 to 6 to
respective group member.
How communicative is the respective group member? This concerns:
- Willingness to communicate (passing on information / willingness to communicate)
- Presence on the forums (IPK and group forum)
- Critical ability (active + passive)
Give a grade of 1-6 to each group member
How does the group work work? This includes the following criteria:
- Completion of the (assigned) tasks,
- Compliance with meetings and agreements
Again a grade from 1-6 each time.
Claudia answered on 02/14/03 (3:19 pm):
@Julia and Urs
I wish you all the best in Istanbul. I hope everything works out. Keep us up to date!
Claudia answered on 02/14/03 (10:18 pm):
Are there any difficulties? What's happening? Unfortunately, I can no longer reach you, your cell phone is already switched off. Get in touch if you still need anything!
uRS answered on 02/16/03 (14:52):
Try it out on this day.
Ms. Gründel, who was a bit unfriendly at the beginning, and we asked the foreign language department of the Bosporusuný 60 questionnaires, asked that we would talk to you again. ýI didn’t do the abre before meýner DEPARTURE, ALWAYS DONE. I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT SHE WANTS. (SHE WAS NOT VERY VERY CONVINCED OF OUR QUESTIONNAIRE, PLEASE CALL HER AND ASK WHAT ELSE HAS ON YOUR HEART
THEN ASK YOU HOW MANY PEOPLE (IN NUMERAL AND PROPORTIONAL IN THEIR LEARNING GERMAN) 2.) WHAT THESE PEOPLE ARE STUDYING AND WHAT THEIR MOTIVATION IS.
LOVE FROM ASIA
URS UN D JULIA
Claudia answered on 02/16/03 (3:11 pm):
I thought you would meet Frau Gründel on Monday ?! or do I have the wrong info. Well I'll try to reach you then. How are you getting on otherwise? You could also ask people on the street whether they speak a foreign language and which or how many? That would be interesting for me too.
Benjamin answered on 02/16/03 (3:27 pm):
I would be interested in the extent to which people are willing to provide information, i.e. whether they react in a friendly manner or are not ready to submit to any questioning.
Claudia replied on 02/16/03 (16:16):
Didn't reach Ms. Gründel. I'll try it via email, especially since those are questions that she can't answer off the cuff on Sunday!
Urs answered on 02/17/03 (16:42):
Thank you for your efforts. We’ll meet with Mrs. Zýerau tomorrow Mrs. Gründel ýst dýe others (have a look on my websýte to the personae dramatýs).
The people who chat and want to sell something can say about half of German for small talk (but also a few words Spanish, French, Swedish etc.) Basýc English can all talk to someone else. But you don't understand your money properly with your touristic deserving understanding if you have a few bits of English.
We haven't chatted to any people on the street. lýes best what anna has posted.
Urs answered on 02/19/03 (14:45):
I didn't notice that my report about the university was confused, but it may well be that I have too much background knowledge that nobody who wasn't there can have. I can still be reached at home today and tomorrow and will be at the North Sea for two weeks from Friday. (Maybe you can ask me what else you want to know now that the impressions are still fresh)
Also, would you be so kind as to email me a copy of the mail you sent to Frau Gründel. We still have to clarify with her how we can get our questionnaires back. Mrs. Zierau will bring the others back to Germany around May 10th.
Claudia answered on 02/19/03 (16:32):
I no longer have the original email that I sent Ms. Gründel. But she replied to me today and I will forward the mail to all of you.
Claudia answered on 02/19/03 (16:36):
maybe you will let me know if you still take any steps so that I (and Benni) also know. Ms. Gründel's answer sounded slightly annoyed. But see for yourself. I sent it to you.
Urs answered on 02/19/03 (17:22):
Ms. Gründel usually answers unfriendly and also considers us - whatever we do - to be incompetent, so the answer is not surprising. It has nothing to do with any of my actions (which I would not have told you about) or with your mail. The good woman is just like that. Don't worry about it. she wasn't nicer to me either. And I got the impression that you are up to date (if you don't, I'm sorry).
I will not do anything more before my vacation and then we'll see.
Thanks for the mail forwarding.
jpm answered on 02/19/03 (17:53):
@ For my students
Please remember that all of the people who help us deserve a certain amount of gratitude. Most people basically turn off "supplicants". So when someone gets involved with our wishes, it is not a matter of course, but very nice. Even if Ms. G. seems unfriendly at times, she does something for us. Then it is certainly not fair to treat them like that in this public forum. Please do not take this as an instruction, because I am very satisfied with your work, but it is one of my duties as a lecturer to emphasize the aspect of humanity and respect. After all, you're in class to learn.
Benjamin answered on 02/19/03 (18:46):
I can only agree with JPM's opinion; after all, through or in Ms. G. you had a contact person in Istanbul.
We, ie the "Foreign Languages" group, should get together, preferably before you leave, as there are a few things to discuss regarding previous approaches - since we were mostly NOT up to date - because the next one The course of the course and the implementation of individual projects depend on it.
Urs answered on 02/19/03 (8:40 pm):
Thanks for your posting. I admit that I didn't write particularly nicely about her in affect, but I find it very frustrating - whatever you do and even when you are very polite - always getting unkind answers.
jpm answered on 02/19/03 (8:42 pm):
I understand. To protect myself, I assume that "unkindness" is rather normal. So it doesn't annoy me if I am treated unkindly and I am very happy when someone is nice to me ... :-)))
Urs answered on 02/19/03 (10:38 pm):
You have fully figured out my psychopathology :-))
jpm replied on 02/20/03 (05:14):
Not just today! :-)))
But: your case is really not that bad! :-)))
KENAN answered on 03/01/03 (02:58):
Hello, my name is KENAN ILGÜN, I AM 21 YEARS OLD, BORN AND RAISED UP IN GERMANY AND STUDYING IN BONN HISTORY IN MAJOR JURA AND COMMUNICATION RESEARCH IN PHONETICS! FROM REGION TO REGION MUCH STRONGER THAN IN OTHER COUNTRIES! I CANNOT REMEMBER THAT GERMANS ARE INSURED WITH PIGS IN TURKEY! KONYA-THE CITY COMES FROM THE GÖKCE IS A VERY CONSERVATIVE CITY AND EVERYONE CAN SEE IT! THAT MEANS YOU ARE NOT AS OPEN-OPENING AS OTHER TURKS! I COME FROM ISTANBUL AND THERE THAT FOREIGN LANGUAGES ARE PRESENTED! FOR EXAMPLE, MY MOTHER COULD SPEAK GERMAN ALREADY AT 14! THAT'S EVEN BEFORE SHE MOVED TO GERMANY WITH MY FATHER LEARNED IN THE GALATASARAY LISESI IN ISTANBUL! THE TURKISH PRIVATE SCHOOLS ARE AVAILABLE TO EVERYONE! EITHER THE PARENTS PAY AN H ON MONEY OR YOU HAVE SO GOOD GRADES THAT YOU ARE ALSO ACCEPTED THERE! ADDED THAT MANY TAKE ANY COURSES WHERE YOU CAN LEARN LANGUAGES! IN TURKEY MAINLY ENGLISH - FRENCH AND GERMAN! LONG A METROPOLIS WHERE OTHER RELIGIONS AND LANGUAGES COULD BE EXERCISED FREELY! HEBREW (AFTER THE ESCAPE OF THE JEWS FROM SPAIN IN THE MIDDLE AGES, BECAUSE THEY WERE PURSUED THERE) GREEK BECAUSE THE SEAT OF THE ORTHODOX IS STILL THE SEAT OF THE ORTHODOX IN THE ORTHODOX OF THE ORTHODOX PATRICH THE FLIGHT OF HUNDRED THOUSANDS OF RUSSIANS AFTER THE REVOLUTION IN RUSSIA (1917 -1950 STRONG WAVES OF IMMIGRATION THAT EMIGRATED FROM THERE TO THE USA-EUROPE OR ISRAEL)! NO PRIVILEGE REPRESENTED! MY MOTHER CAN KNOW GREEK! MY GRANDMA GREEK-PERSONAL AND ARMENIAN! SHE WERE GROWED UP WITH THESE LANGUAGES! THESE LANGUAGES ARE STILL SPOKEN THERE! IF YOU'RE IN ISTANBUL SINCE THEN GOING TO ANY CHURCHES AND SYNYGOGS AND ASKING THE PEOPLE THERE! FROM (BEYOGLU)! IN LALELI EVERY SUMMER HUNDRED THOUSANDS OF RUSSIANS-IRANES-UKRAINERS-ASERIANS AND AND AND TO OPERATE THE CASE MANAGEMENT! THAT MEANS YOU BUY AS MUCH AS YOU CAN TAKE IT WITH YOU, TAKE IT WITH YOU YOU WILL SEE THAT MANY CAN SPEAK RUSSIAN THERE! MY USERS THERE CAN ALL SPEAK GERMAN, ENGLISH OR FRENCH! THEY HAVE LEARNED IT IN THEIR SCHOOLS! THE ELDERLY IN OUR RELATIONSHIP MAY ALMOSTLY BE FRENCH WITH THE STANDARD EVEN IN THE RURAL REGIONS OF TURKEY IT HAS RECOGNIZED THAT YOU HAVE TO KEEP UP WITH GLOBALIZATION! E EVERY SCHOOL IS NOT OFFERED FROM GRADE 5 AND, LIKE IN GERMANY, IS A MANDATORY SUBJECT WHAT WAS NOT TAKEN SO SERIOUSLY 15 YEARS AGO! EVERYONE MUST HAVE INTERNET ACCESS IN THE SCHOOLS! UP TO 2006 EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE THIS SCHOOL ARE OFFERED! AND NOT ONLY BECAUSE OF THE TOURISM FACTOR! MY FAMILY ORIGINALLY COMES FROM EAST ANATOLIA BUT HAS BEEN LIVING IN ISTANBUL SINCE 1834 (TULIPER ERA)! SO WE ARE ORIGINALLY STILL IN ISTANBUL MY AUNT IS A BOSNISH TURKISH AND THEIR CAN KNOW TURKISH AND BOSNIAN! THERE ARE A LOT OF THEM IN TURKEY! INCLUDING A LOT OF THOSE SPEAKING BULGARIAN (THE TURKS HAD TO MAKE THE COUNTRY UNDER THE COMMUNIST REGIONS THOSE HAD TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY FROM 1874 (INDEPENDENT OF GREECE FROM OSM.reich) TO 1974 AFTER THE CYPRUS Crisis (ALMOST 2MILLION)! AND IN TURKEY ALSO HAVE ABOUT 3 MILLION ONES GREEK LIVED! THESE ARE ALL ASPECTS THAT YOU MUST NOT OVERLOOK LIKE FRENCH LANGUAGES ARE NOT A MODERN PHENOMENON BUT HAVE OR STILL BELONGED TO EVERYDAY LIFE IN SOME COUNTRIES LIKE ENGLISH IN GERMANY IN THE LAST 30 YEARS!
Michael answered on March 5th, 2003 (12:01 pm):
Feedback for Kenan!
Thank you for your information, which mainly concerns the historical aspect of foreign languages in Turkey. Your contribution (and of course that of Gökce) really comes to life in this forum, because Claudia, Benni, Julia and Urs get first-hand information that they have not been able to do in a short time, even if they have already been to Istanbul in part could absorb. Please stay tuned, especially if questions about the story arise!
Claudia replied on 3/5/03 (2:26 pm):
Thank you for the flood of new information you are giving us. That helps us a lot with our projects!
If I understand you correctly, people of different origins live in Istanbul to earn money, or Turks from different countries who bring their language and culture with them or have already brought them with them. There are districts that are characterized by such a population group as Chinatown in New York. Can I imagine it that way?
When it comes to foreign languages, you mainly speak from school. English, German and French are very important there. But are other languages no longer taught in schools at all, e.g. Russian, Greek or Persian? After all, it would be conceivable based on the historical situation.
Do you also know your way around the university system? By that I mean how the study of foreign languages works, what requirements the students have to meet, what foreign languages can be learned at the university and what is their goal?
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